Well, FrontPage users have a new web editor to enjoy and over come new exciting challenges.

I'd like to share our thoughts and expericences in working with FrontPage and how everyone is handling the move to Expression Web.

1. What challenges did you face and find the most difficult when you first started using FrontPage?

2. Do you see the same challenges or more difficult challenges in Expression Web?

3. With all the CSS capibilities in Expression Web, will this inspire you to want to learn CSS on a higher level?

4. How long do you think it will be before you completly switch over to Expression Web or will you continue to use FrontPage?

5. Do you think Expression Web will change how designers learn to create websites?

6. What is your favorite features in Expression Web?

Debbie

1. What challenges did you face and find the most difficult when you first started using FrontPage?

I was a complete novice with no formal html education. I used the themes to build my website and became very frustrated with the navigation tools although I continued to use them as best I could.

2. Do you see the same challenges or more difficult challenges in Expression Web?

Now I'm a semi-novice with one community college course in html and css. Expression Web is a breath of fresh air. Using what I have learned I have full control over the structure and flow of my website. I do all my development in the split mode because I want to understand the code and do editing for such things as links in the code domain.

3. With all the CSS capibilities in Expression Web, will this inspire you to want to learn CSS on a higher level?

Yes. I've been going through the book "Beginning CSS Web Development" by Simon Collison. I'm attempting to maximize the use of external styles to keep the html simple and clear.

4. How long do you think it will be before you completly switch over to Expression Web or will you continue to use FrontPage?

My FrontPage website is archived, completely redone using Expression Web and CSS and DWT. I have done some other websites in much the same manner. They aren't fancy but they are easy to understand and maintain. 

5. Do you think Expression Web will change how designers learn to create websites?

I have found the online tutorials and one available book, "Using Microsoft Expression Web" by Jim Cheshire, very helpful in understanding the real basics of website development as well as the features of Expression Web. With FrontPage you tend to be insulated from the code and can end up with a real mess.

6. What is your favorite features in Expression Web?

The CSS features have to be the most important but I really like the emphasis on standards based code. Hopefully that will influence the browser designers too.

Okay, I've been messing with EW for about 3 weeks now, first as a trial download, then with the upgrade version for FP users. I've been using FP since the '97 version. In that time I've gotten enough of a hang of EW to have converted one smaller site I run over to it, using the DWT model. Next, I will probably convert that same site over to the ASP mode. As with so much of the software I use, I've been very much task oriented with EW, just wanting to quickly learn what I needed to get the job done. Now to your list:
1: (Challenges/difficulty). The most useless help yet to go on a MS product. Sure, there are all sorts of cool tutorials and so-on at the MS site, but to someone who lives in an area where it's slow dial-up or tin cans and string, tbis stuff is worse than useless. The DVD that came with the upgrade wasn't much better. The EW book from Jimco was more help. On some things.
2: (Same/more difficult) FP was much more helpful in offering crucial help (see above).
3. (CSS) My experiments with CSS in FP never went anywhere. Once again, help for mastering the basic concepts of CSS wasn't really there. Am making considerable progress now, but that depended on my own revalatory metaphors for dealing with same. Cannot help but learn more; if a user is working on a new site much of that learning curve could probably be avoided, but for someone converting an existing site there is little choice but to get deeper into the code--and css--than was ever necessary in FP.
4:(Changeover) Any site I may be helping someone else build, or handing over to someone else will be in FP, especially if I have to teach them the program. Have taught several people how to build and maintain sites in FP, usually with a weekend boot camp. Can't see that happening with EW. It would take that long just to get them to be able to tame the interface (all the task panes like styles and behaviors would have better off as roll-ups, or at least minimizable).
5. (Change designer style) It could. The more compliant code is nice, and I'm beginning to see where some good style work can be done with css (a visit to csszengarden.com is inspiring). ASP offers some good functionality, even for non database driven sites (the ad rotater would make a good changing image display, though now I'm thinking I might be able to do that with scripts/css. . .
6. (Favorite part of EW) I like the compliant code. I like the increased degree of control I have over each page element, and as I adapt my style (and habits) to the CSS way of working I can see ways of putting more polish on sites.
7. You didn't ask for this one, but . . . here are the things I don't like: a] Layout tables can behave badly in FP. In EW they can act psychotic. b] I build low bandwidth sites--more of us are stuck in the pre-broadband stone age than you realize. The lack of the upload speed meter honks me off; to me it's another broadband-centric decision that makes it tough for the rest of us. Now I'm going to have to go and hand time pages, relate that to file size and other factors, and make a crib sheet because I still try to stick close to the old 20 second rule. Yes! Aren't we helping you be productive! c] Lack of information in help, again. Real help dealing with child/parent layers? Good luck! Will ASP controls work in a regular site? Won't say. The list goes on. d] --and I'll stop here though trust me, I could go on, EW was (is) really being pushed at FP users, but the sort of information that would be really useful to someone making the changeover is only available to people who have time to get and sit through streaming video/tutorials/etc online. I know the days of the 5 pound manual (like the one that came with my MS Works 1.0) are long gone, but this is again a real oversight and weakness.

Interesting forum handle.

FWIW, I find people who have never used a web editor are easier to teach Expression Web than those who have ingrained habits from FrontPage.

The concept of styles works pretty well for them because they don't have table baggage or expectations on how the web will work. I've taught a couple of complete newbies how to create a site in Expression in a couple of hours. No more time that it takes to teach them basics in FrontPage.

OTOH, I agree with you on the help files. I wish the survey Microsoft posted over on the public groups actually worked. Everyone I know who has tried to take it have received a "you can only take this survey once" which would be fine if they had actually taken the survey. I know I had not when I received the message.

One of the particularly galling things about the help file is that when they reoved remote xml connections from Expression Web between the CTP and the Beta they left the instructions in on how to do it so people post saying - I was following the directions in the help file ....

FWIW, I consdier that layers are not broken in Expression - they are broken in the real world and shouldn't be used. After all there is no such HTML element as layer outside of the proprietary Netscape 4.x code. Layers has been appropriate as shorthand for absoltuely positioned divs. One of those things that sound so useful but in practice turn out to be  more trouble than they are worth.

Interesting questions, Debbie, I'll see how I'll answer them.

1)  I've been using FrontPage (FP) since I think it was version FP 95.  The hardest thing for me to overcome was the whole website and web page paradigm.  I've been programming professional for about 20 years and so I am used to a windowing environment.  Web development and design is a real paradigm shift.  (Yes, that phrase has been overused, but it still is true.)

When I first started with FP, I wanted to just have it do the designing for me.  I didn't know HTML and I wasn't interested in learning it.  CSS was completely unknown to me.  However, about 4 years ago the projects I was working on at work required me to get into HTML much more (we were doing ASP applications back then).  So I learned.  About that time I was using FP 2000 and wishing it had a better way of allowing the web designer to edit HTML directly (I had to do it so much at work with what is called Microsoft Visual InterDev, that it was hard not to be able to use that in FP).  Then FP 2003 came along and that was a vast improvement over FP 2000 and previous versions.  I don't have Microsoft Expression Web yet; I am looking forward to getting that and experimenting with it.  Re-designing some of my websites, delving more into CSS, etc.

2) Since I haven't got Expression I cannot comment intelligently about this.

3) Absolutely!  In my opinion, the state of web site and web page design has moved so far along that being completely ignorant of the underlying technology, such as HTML, CSS, XML, etc, will drive people to really get "under the hood".

4) Something this calendar year.

5) From what I have heard about Expression Web, I think the answer to this question is yes.

6) Better support for CSS design.

>>The concept of styles works pretty well for them because they don't have table baggage or expectations on how the web will work. I've taught a couple of complete newbies how to create a site in Expression in a couple of hours. No more time that it takes to teach them basics in FrontPage.

Wow, you must be a better teacher than me. Granted, coming from FP gives you several disadvantages, but a new user getting the hang of styes management, tag properties, image positioning and all that in a couple hours?

>>FWIW, I consdier that layers are not broken in Expression - they are broken in the real world and shouldn't be used. After all there is no such HTML element as layer outside of the proprietary Netscape 4.x code. Layers has been appropriate as shorthand for absoltuely positioned divs. One of those things that sound so useful but in practice turn out to be  more trouble than they are worth.

So of course the tutorial DVD that comes with EW spends more time on layers than on other far more critical issues. Sigh. Not that I planned to use layers on anything crucial, just wanted to master them.
Other odds&ends; swap image still uses FP code?!? This is to avoid js issues?

No there are several things I like about EW--and several things I hate . . . just like most every other piece of software I've ever used. I have one fairly large site to change over at some point, and just want to have a full handle on things before I commit myself. (They don't always want to let you out.)

Surely I sound like a grouch, and to some degree I am. But I'm also (among other things) a writer, (2 novels, 30 some short stories) and the amount of time I have to put into keeping a site up is limited, and I guess the inavalibility of backup resources is what I've found most disappointing.

Now this forum on the other hand is useful and helpful, and thanks for keeping it up!

-S 

. What challenges did you face and find the most difficult when you first started using FrontPage?

Being Totally Computer Dumb, but not afraid to jump in, If all else Fails, turn Off the computer , walk away,
refresh your mind and turn around and jump back in.

2. Do you see the same challenges or more difficult challenges in Expression Web?

I have since lerned the Basics of HTML, this helped big time, Now the challenge is to learn more HTML and jump into CSS

3. With all the CSS capibilities in Expression Web, will this inspire you to want to learn CSS on a higher level?

Awaying the arrival of a Book on CSS. Also going to order Cheryl's Book on Expression Web.

4. How long do you think it will be before you completly switch over to Expression Web or will you continue to use FrontPage?

I have done the following sites with the Beta and trail versions:

http://www.ontario-bed-and-breakfasts.com/

http://www.newfoundlandbedandbreakfast.com/

http://www.strathlauriehouse.com/

http://www.gatheralls.com/

http://www.beach-view-motel.com/

and in the process of changing the following site;

http://www.exploreprinceedwardisland.com/

Since I bought the upgrade, I had a lot of trouble getting it, because Amazon.Com doesnt ship it to Canada and

Amazon.Ca doesn't have and didn't when the would have it. The manager at our local Staples did some digging and Special ordered It.

5. Do you think Expression Web will change how designers learn to create websites?

Yes people will now have to learn more, thus more improved sites.

6. What is your favorite features in Expression Web?

CSS and emphasis on standards based code.

Some of the sites that I have used to learn more about Expression Web are:

http://by-expression.com/tutorials/

http://www.learnexpression.com/

http://www.ew-resource.co.uk/links.aspx

http://expression-web.net/

http://any-expression.com/

http://www.expression-web-designer-help.com/

http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx?pg=1&cat=&lang=en&cr=US&guid=&sloc=en-us&dg=microsoft.public.expression.webdesigner&fltr=

http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/expression-web/training-videos.mspx

Hope these help some people also.

 Bill

Nice job Bill. One tip to remember when previewing your site in a browser, use more than one browser - IE, Firefox and Opera are my choices and check at 800x600 and 1024x768. A couple of yours break in Firefox -

http://www.beach-view-motel.com/ looks like the image is a little to wide for the space allowed. Happened to me when I first used this layout. And on this one your menu wraps http://www.newfoundlandbedandbreakfast.com/

Hope you get you copy of EW soon. Looks like a place I'd like to visit again.

pat 

 I'm going to share some of my challenges when learning FrontPage.

 1. What challenges did you face and find the most difficult when you first started using FrontPage?
I remember the days, I and a friend use to vent our frustrations in mastering FrontPage. Seems like it had a mind of its own. Learning how to make tables work for me. It was hard getting things to line up, getting the navigation setup. Learning how to get a page to render in the browser and not look like it had been blown up by an air compresser and then all the air was let out.

2. Do you see the same challenges or more difficult challenges in Expression Web?
I do see challenges, not the same ones as in FrontPage. The most challenges I see is learning to code CSS better and make it work for me. Like when I first learned to work with tables in FrontPage, I could NOT get it down how to nest tables. Everyone said it is easy, I could not understand. Now, my goal is to learn a NEW way of tables and that is tableless design with CSS. I see these great looking sites and it is all coded with CSS.

3. With all the CSS capibilities in Expression Web, will this inspire you to want to learn CSS on a higher level?
YES YES, I have been discovering CSS for the past year and I'm see what a wonderful knowledge this is. The clean layouts, more control over your site. Instead of changing 100 pages, I change one page called a Style Sheet and all my pages are updated. My other goal is to get past my fear of creating DWT's. For some reason, my brain has a road block and I need to remove it.

4. How long do you think it will be before you completly switch over to Expression Web or will you continue to use FrontPage?
Well, It may be 6 months to a year. I'm sure I will still stay in my comfort level with FrontPage. But just as I mastered the new versions of FrontPage I will also master EW and will more forward to better designs.

5. Do you think Expression Web will change how designers learn to create websites?
Yes, EW has a lot to offer. With all the CSS in EW, it will teach you to use it more and by learning CSS your sites will flow better and the browsers will display and render them better. Site managment will be easier and less time consuming. Like my current site, for me it will take me hours and hours to redo it. It I had done it in all CSS, all I would need to do is work on my style sheet and the rest would be done for me.

6. What is your favorite features in Expression Web?
All the CSS, as I have been wanting to get more under my belt. Now I can learn and advance. The way it applies the Doc type. The nice example of the CSS templates. How it prompts you to correct things by highlighting your mistakes.

1. What challenges did you face and find the most difficult when you first started using FrontPage?
Well, I was really new to the internet itself and had FP95 which I tried to use but did not have much luck.  I was able to quickly get FP98 and suddenly creating websites didn't seem so hard (themes, shared borders etc). I think I am glad that those first sites are now nowhere to be found. :0)

I had the hardest time moving from FP98 to the newer versions. I just couldn't handle FP2000. I loved FP2002 and then 2003.

2. Do you see the same challenges or more difficult challenges in Expression Web?
I've been at it quite a while now and although I am not designing a lot of websites I have my own to take care of. I don't feel the challenges will be as difficult in Expression Web since I am so much more comfortable using FrontPage.

3. With all the CSS capabilities in Expression Web, will this inspire you to want to learn CSS on a higher level?
Yes it will. I'm trying to learn more CSS all the time.

4. How long do you think it will be before you completly switch over to Expression Web or will you continue to use FrontPage?
As soon as possible although I will keep FrontPage on my computer as my *binky*.

5. Do you think Expression Web will change how designers learn to create websites?
I think the more sophisticated EW becomes the less likely it will be that companies will have employees able to jump right in and create websites (such as they may be) which could mean more work for actual web designers.

6. What is your favorite features in Expression Web?
I like the ability to click on the css in code view and have the style sheet open. I also like that it highlights errors since validation has become important to me.

Micki

http://www.eclecticacademy.com

In reading over threads to make sure I didn't miss a post that should have caused the person to win this month's prize I see I neglected to address one of your "don't likes" and that is the missing load speed. It is still there just inside of reports. You can run a Slow Pages report from Sites | Reports | Problems
Slow Pages.

Not quite as convient as a bottom of the page indicator but it will give you the info you need and on a site wide basis. 

Yeah, using the reports to check for slow pages after first setting up for a load time of 20 sec@ 56K-and then rerunning the reports at slower connect times. No handy, but some help.

On the reports, EW really doesn't cope well with a computer without always-on broadband; has a tendency to report every external link as broken.

-Steve